This one is powerful!
Old observation:. You have said that similarities between the Bible and Babylonian texts resulted from the Bible texts copying the Babylonian.
What if it was the other way around? The Babalyonians copied the Bible? Then their ascribing 30000 years to their kings gives the imbelishment to them
Author
Thanks George. I appreciate the positivity!
Your observation is certainly a possibility, it just has one problem. The texts of the Mesopotamians predate the Israelite texts by a long period. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t an “ur-text” somewhere that we haven’t found that predates these documents, we just haven’t found them. So scholarship works using evidence and with these limitations scholars do their best (oftentimes guesstimates) to come up with models for how cultures have influenced each other. From a Latter-day Saint perspective, we can say that Adam predates all. Therefore all cultural traditions spring from a source that has ultimate truth, therefore there are echoes of eternal truths in all of these cultures. I certainly have this view, but I cannot posit this from a scholarly point of view, seeing as we do not have evidence for this position. I also understand that I may have caused some members of the Church heartburn in my approach to not taking the dates of these ten early patriarchs as literal. Just because I don’t believe that there were people walking around living to 900+ years doesn’t mean I am correct. I wasn’t there. But I can see the pattern of these ideas when viewed through the polemical lens of the scribes that were working to denigrate Babylonian political and religious ideas. I see this in the same light as when I read that Egypt is called “Rahab” or when Caesar taxed the “all the world” (Luke 2.1) or when the voice of the angel (Alma 38.7) shook “the whole earth.”
Perhaps one day (I hope!) we will gain access to super old documents that pre-date 2000 BCE. I know that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls caused many in the community of Biblical scholars to rethink many of their views. This is the quest of investigation: to keep asking questions, examine evidence, and work to draw conclusions based on the best evidence at hand. So while I love this aspect of the Gospel (serious scholarship), my testimony is not rooted in these things. I work to view this as one of the lenses by which to approach scripture, but it is not the only lens. Faith is an important lens as well. And I think that there is room for a faithful reading of many of these things from both the super-literal and non-literal perspectives. Space for both can be given.
Hey Mike and Bryce, I really enjoy your podcast, though sometimes I do feel it’s a bit over my head but I have made it a weekly ritual since the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants. I was wondering if you could enlighten me on Jeremiah 44. When I read it and saw the footnote I assumed that the Jews at that time knew of a mother in heaven but we’re not worshiping her in the way that she should have been worshiped. Seeing that we will not cover that chapter with others in Jeremiah I want to ask if what you brought up about El Shaddai possibly meaning the goddess of fertility, has anything to do with the Queen of heaven in Jeremiah 44 and another chapter that I cannot recall?
Thanks brethren,
Gerald
Author
Gerald,
We will address this when we get to that point of the podcast. For now, check out this post and the associated source material:
I also wanted to leave this song with you by Amy Grant. https://youtu.be/C6S8W2l3Qtc
When I was growing up my sister’s and I sang this in the Baptist church I grew up in. After your lesson on El Shaddai I listen to the song again and thinking about heavenly mother the song took on a bit of a difference, though in my youth I really had no idea what I was singing about but it was catchy.
No need to take time to reply here, but the J, P, E (and other?) versions of the Bible are a totally new thing for me to have heard mentioned. No problems with any of it. I love learning anything, and it does help make sense of some of the repetition, etc. (Like, when I just read the chapters this week I was thinking, “So, when was the covenant officially made? This chapter? This one? Or do they just keep re-making it?”) But now I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. So different tellings of the same events? Focused on the things significant to that author? And if one mentions cutting the covenant and another mentions circumcision, did both things happen? But they each only mention one? Or if one uses the name for Christ and one uses the name for Heavenly Mother, then, who was there? Both? One? Anyway! As we progress in the Bible I’d love to have you continue to explain this here and there in as layman’s terms of possible so it can start clicking in my brain what is happening with all these different versions.
Author
Nancy, there is much going on in this question. For starters, when it comes to “seeing” more clearly the complexity of the sources, I would highly recommend that you read Richard Elliott Freedman’s book “Who Wrote the Bible?” You can pick up a copy for $13.99 on Amazon. Start there. This will help you in your journey.
Comments are closed.
2025 Tours with Mike:
Best of Italy in June
Church History in July
Greece by Land & Sea in Oct
This one is powerful!
Old observation:. You have said that similarities between the Bible and Babylonian texts resulted from the Bible texts copying the Babylonian.
What if it was the other way around? The Babalyonians copied the Bible? Then their ascribing 30000 years to their kings gives the imbelishment to them
Thanks George. I appreciate the positivity!
Your observation is certainly a possibility, it just has one problem. The texts of the Mesopotamians predate the Israelite texts by a long period. This doesn’t mean that there isn’t an “ur-text” somewhere that we haven’t found that predates these documents, we just haven’t found them. So scholarship works using evidence and with these limitations scholars do their best (oftentimes guesstimates) to come up with models for how cultures have influenced each other. From a Latter-day Saint perspective, we can say that Adam predates all. Therefore all cultural traditions spring from a source that has ultimate truth, therefore there are echoes of eternal truths in all of these cultures. I certainly have this view, but I cannot posit this from a scholarly point of view, seeing as we do not have evidence for this position. I also understand that I may have caused some members of the Church heartburn in my approach to not taking the dates of these ten early patriarchs as literal. Just because I don’t believe that there were people walking around living to 900+ years doesn’t mean I am correct. I wasn’t there. But I can see the pattern of these ideas when viewed through the polemical lens of the scribes that were working to denigrate Babylonian political and religious ideas. I see this in the same light as when I read that Egypt is called “Rahab” or when Caesar taxed the “all the world” (Luke 2.1) or when the voice of the angel (Alma 38.7) shook “the whole earth.”
Perhaps one day (I hope!) we will gain access to super old documents that pre-date 2000 BCE. I know that the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls caused many in the community of Biblical scholars to rethink many of their views. This is the quest of investigation: to keep asking questions, examine evidence, and work to draw conclusions based on the best evidence at hand. So while I love this aspect of the Gospel (serious scholarship), my testimony is not rooted in these things. I work to view this as one of the lenses by which to approach scripture, but it is not the only lens. Faith is an important lens as well. And I think that there is room for a faithful reading of many of these things from both the super-literal and non-literal perspectives. Space for both can be given.
Hey Mike and Bryce, I really enjoy your podcast, though sometimes I do feel it’s a bit over my head but I have made it a weekly ritual since the beginning of the Doctrine and Covenants. I was wondering if you could enlighten me on Jeremiah 44. When I read it and saw the footnote I assumed that the Jews at that time knew of a mother in heaven but we’re not worshiping her in the way that she should have been worshiped. Seeing that we will not cover that chapter with others in Jeremiah I want to ask if what you brought up about El Shaddai possibly meaning the goddess of fertility, has anything to do with the Queen of heaven in Jeremiah 44 and another chapter that I cannot recall?
Thanks brethren,
Gerald
Gerald,
We will address this when we get to that point of the podcast. For now, check out this post and the associated source material:
http://www.ldsscriptureteachings.org/2019/09/17/1-nephi-8-and-11-another-way-to-see-the-tree-of-life/
I also wanted to leave this song with you by Amy Grant. https://youtu.be/C6S8W2l3Qtc
When I was growing up my sister’s and I sang this in the Baptist church I grew up in. After your lesson on El Shaddai I listen to the song again and thinking about heavenly mother the song took on a bit of a difference, though in my youth I really had no idea what I was singing about but it was catchy.
No need to take time to reply here, but the J, P, E (and other?) versions of the Bible are a totally new thing for me to have heard mentioned. No problems with any of it. I love learning anything, and it does help make sense of some of the repetition, etc. (Like, when I just read the chapters this week I was thinking, “So, when was the covenant officially made? This chapter? This one? Or do they just keep re-making it?”) But now I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it. So different tellings of the same events? Focused on the things significant to that author? And if one mentions cutting the covenant and another mentions circumcision, did both things happen? But they each only mention one? Or if one uses the name for Christ and one uses the name for Heavenly Mother, then, who was there? Both? One? Anyway! As we progress in the Bible I’d love to have you continue to explain this here and there in as layman’s terms of possible so it can start clicking in my brain what is happening with all these different versions.
Nancy, there is much going on in this question. For starters, when it comes to “seeing” more clearly the complexity of the sources, I would highly recommend that you read Richard Elliott Freedman’s book “Who Wrote the Bible?” You can pick up a copy for $13.99 on Amazon. Start there. This will help you in your journey.